Jul 10 12:17:59 --> kc8hfi (n=kc8hfi@75.108.110.238) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:18:00 --> sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:18:30 <-- sdziallas_ has quit (Client Quit) Jul 10 12:18:42 spoleeba, PING Jul 10 12:18:50 here..sort of Jul 10 12:18:52 np spot Jul 10 12:19:31 --> sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:19:59 <-- sdziallas_ has quit (Client Quit) Jul 10 12:20:49 ok, I'm back... who all is around for the IRC support meeting? Jul 10 12:21:03 * Sonar_Guy is here Jul 10 12:21:04 --> engwnbie|scooter (n=engwnbie@bas1-oshawa95-1177730161.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:21:24 --> sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:21:29 maybe i'm here Jul 10 12:21:43 <-- sdziallas_ has quit (Client Quit) Jul 10 12:21:53 * kc8hfi is here, watching, learning Jul 10 12:22:04 * roguedaemon is absent Jul 10 12:22:06 * Southern_Gentlem here Jul 10 12:22:10 --- nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Init process Jul 10 12:22:14 spot will brb Jul 10 12:22:18 --> vwbusguy- (n=scott@c-68-51-66-81.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #Fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:22:43 yeah, lets wait for spot. Jul 10 12:22:46 * zcat is in the nosebleed seats Jul 10 12:22:49 * nirik goes to get another cup of coffee Jul 10 12:23:12 * vwbusguy- sips on a coke Jul 10 12:23:24 --> sdziallas_ (n=sebastia@p57A2C7CB.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:23:25 * Southern_Gentlem inserts MD IV Jul 10 12:23:31 <-- k0k has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 12:23:35 * spot is back Jul 10 12:24:07 --- sdziallas_ is now known as sdziallas_away Jul 10 12:24:57 ok, so a number of topics I wanted to try and work on today... Jul 10 12:25:03 <-- finnzi (n=finnur@big.finnzi.com) has left #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:25:08 --- nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Code of conduct Jul 10 12:25:10 <-- drago01 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 12:25:16 so where are we on the code of conduct? Jul 10 12:25:38 we have this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/DRAFT-IRCSupportConduct Jul 10 12:25:39 post link for new people please Jul 10 12:25:48 --> daMaestro (n=jon@fedora/damaestro) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:25:53 I would like to split it out into seperate things for users/helpers/ops... Jul 10 12:26:03 and we need to polish it up a bunch Jul 10 12:26:17 nirik: here is the initial page I started https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/Help_from_IRC Jul 10 12:26:42 excellent. Jul 10 12:26:48 so, i have the Red Hat lawyers looking into nirik's query about referring to livna Jul 10 12:27:18 how long is an operator shift? Jul 10 12:27:20 i've been thinking about the OT thing, i think OT is something that binds a good irc channel and its members together in a positive way, but needs to be stated and enforced that its inappropriate when there is a question on the floor Jul 10 12:27:42 spot: we aren't sure yet, as we aren't sure how many ops we have that are active. Jul 10 12:27:47 okay. Jul 10 12:27:56 I sent a memo to all the current ops a week or two ago. Jul 10 12:28:07 the separate social channel thing doesnt really work too well in that respect Jul 10 12:28:31 I heard from sopwith that he's not involved anymore, but would be willing to do on-off helps (ie, take a shift when someone needed it, etc) Jul 10 12:28:32 i think a #fedora-ops channel is useful (btw) Jul 10 12:28:40 i know i'm all over the place, sorry. :) Jul 10 12:28:42 spot: +1 Jul 10 12:28:48 +1 Jul 10 12:28:56 aye, but should it be private? Jul 10 12:29:02 yes, ops only Jul 10 12:29:13 #fedora-ops has been need for along time Jul 10 12:29:17 like so banned people cant park in there Jul 10 12:29:19 roguedaemon: yeah, but if people are off topic newcomers might be less willing to ask questions. Jul 10 12:29:34 nirik: yeah, its a delicate balance i think Jul 10 12:29:40 <-- sdziallas has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 12:29:40 one thing we could also do (if we wanted) is to give chanops special cloaks Jul 10 12:29:51 #fedora-social is definitely necessary Jul 10 12:29:59 fedora/op/$USERNAME, for example Jul 10 12:30:03 nope Jul 10 12:30:08 disagree spot Jul 10 12:30:23 I would say leave fedora-ops open for now, and if it becomes a problem kick/close/do something else. Jul 10 12:30:31 we want to be as open as we can... Jul 10 12:30:35 roguedaemon, +1 Jul 10 12:30:35 * spot is okay with that Jul 10 12:30:41 --> drago01 (n=linux@chello062178124130.3.13.univie.teleweb.at) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:30:53 nirik: +1 Jul 10 12:30:57 =1 Jul 10 12:31:00 + Jul 10 12:31:23 maybe we should try to focus this on specific topics Jul 10 12:31:27 so, anyone have specific things about the code of conduct? Jul 10 12:31:33 (i have lots of input from the code of conduct) Jul 10 12:31:38 as far as channel ops reporting i think #fedora-ops is enough Jul 10 12:31:56 or should we all edit/use mailing lists and talk about the CoC next meeting? Jul 10 12:32:18 * spot notes that che owns #fedora-ops Jul 10 12:32:19 lets hear what spot has to say Jul 10 12:32:37 Southern_Gentlem: +1 Jul 10 12:33:06 i think the code of conduct is a very good start, but it needs to be separated from the greater irc discussions Jul 10 12:33:17 it should be something simple that any user should be able to quickly read Jul 10 12:33:21 * nirik nods. Jul 10 12:33:29 well, especially the user part of it. Jul 10 12:33:46 ops would have more powers, so should have more responsibilities... Jul 10 12:33:50 If you think of it hierarchically, it should look like this: Jul 10 12:33:51 IRC/ Jul 10 12:33:57 IRC/Participant Jul 10 12:33:59 spot: I would also like to see it added to the docs and part of the initial page that comes up the first time a user opens firefox Jul 10 12:34:01 IRC/Helper Jul 10 12:34:04 IRC/OPs Jul 10 12:34:18 Sonar_Guy: sure, should be possible Jul 10 12:34:52 yeah, a hierarchy is good. Jul 10 12:34:57 spot: I can make those changes to the page. Jul 10 12:34:58 The code of conduct for users should cover Jul 10 12:35:10 1. Things I should not do. Jul 10 12:35:15 2. Things I must not do. Jul 10 12:35:28 and a brief statement of the purpose of #fedora Jul 10 12:35:29 i thought the +v thing was dropped Jul 10 12:36:01 The code of conduct for helpers should cover Jul 10 12:36:05 1. How to help people Jul 10 12:36:08 the +v thing was a ok idea, but I agree no reason to set people apart... so we can drop it for now. Jul 10 12:36:19 well, it isn't to set people apart Jul 10 12:36:29 how would one distinguish between users and helpers then? Jul 10 12:36:38 it is to make it obvious that their answers are coming from a helper Jul 10 12:36:46 vwbusguy-, like they already do Jul 10 12:36:47 ricky pointed out that it might well make non "official" people less likely to assist... Jul 10 12:37:17 i doubt it. Jul 10 12:37:23 it does make things a bit more complicated, but personally i can appreciate a clear chain of command Jul 10 12:37:36 i think it would be interesting to do helper shifts with a bot Jul 10 12:37:54 if the helper arrives during their shift, the bot gives them +v Jul 10 12:37:59 ? Jul 10 12:38:01 at the end of their shift, the bot takes -v Jul 10 12:38:07 other ircd's have more user modes. half-ops, etc. not necessary. Jul 10 12:38:10 ah ok Jul 10 12:38:21 spot: What do you gain with the +v? Jul 10 12:38:25 we have talked about a bot... but we need to make sure it can't be abused by users first Jul 10 12:38:38 ricky: we want to give the people who volunteer to take a shift some recognition Jul 10 12:38:39 It's just credibility that other people somehow don't get Jul 10 12:39:04 ricky, +1 Jul 10 12:39:14 anyone can offer an answer in channel, these people are stepping up to say that they will field all questions during a period Jul 10 12:39:17 ricky: sometimes when lots of people are answering its hard for newcomers to know who and who not to listen to Jul 10 12:39:20 People who regularly help are already extremely noticeable - you can listen for a few minutes and pretty much know who they are Jul 10 12:39:30 --- knurd is now known as knurd_afk Jul 10 12:39:35 ricky: lots of people don't listen for any period of time Jul 10 12:39:35 <-- notting (n=notting@redhat/notting) has left #fedora-meeting ("Ex-Chat") Jul 10 12:39:40 they just drop in when they have a question Jul 10 12:39:57 many folks won't know to look for +v either... Jul 10 12:39:59 roguedaemon: From what I've seen in there, the quality of advice is excellent. We don't have a huge problem with people giving bad advice. Jul 10 12:40:03 spot: So this is to set them apart for those people Jul 10 12:40:08 nirik: they will if we put it in the user code of conduct Jul 10 12:40:19 some % of them, sure... Jul 10 12:40:23 the channel usually is good at calling out when bad advice is given Jul 10 12:40:29 One-off people are pretty unlikely to read it :-( Jul 10 12:40:39 ricky once in awhile, we get bad people in there and they are taken care of Jul 10 12:40:49 we don't have to do it, but my experience is that it is a pointless gesture that makes people feel good. Jul 10 12:40:55 it is complicated, probably more trouble than its worth Jul 10 12:40:58 and it doesn't really give them anything Jul 10 12:41:17 I think it has other effects Jul 10 12:41:23 the same reason people pad their nicknames to go the top of the userlist Jul 10 12:41:35 heheh Jul 10 12:41:57 Hah, never knew about the userlist thing. Jul 10 12:42:10 * nirik has no great strong feelings on +v... we could try it and see if it helps/hinders... Jul 10 12:42:11 <-- spoleeba has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 12:42:19 then theres the borderline activity, people who think they should be but arent, etc etc Jul 10 12:42:24 i'd like to give it a try, if it becomes trouble we can drop it Jul 10 12:42:48 spot: would we need the bot for it? or just scheduled helpers? Jul 10 12:42:49 At the very least, many other channels use +v to set peoples' status (to people coming) apart - that's the impression we'll give. Jul 10 12:43:15 i don't know if freenode's chanserv has the capability to let people +v themselves with a low access level Jul 10 12:43:16 I do'nt think the trouble with this approach is easily identifiable. Jul 10 12:43:27 Not without getting inside the mind of people asking questions, at least :-) Jul 10 12:43:33 It does (+v) Jul 10 12:43:57 so, we could give the helpers that access level, then let them +v/-v when they go on and off shift Jul 10 12:44:01 Like I said, a questioner will just be more likely to listen to a +v person and ignore other people. That's not something we need Jul 10 12:44:01 i get +v automatically on join in #security-forums Jul 10 12:44:04 ricky and alot of channels you cannot talk without the +v so i think it will be confusing Jul 10 12:44:11 Oh yeah. Jul 10 12:44:54 well, let me put it this way Jul 10 12:45:05 how will we recognize those who volunteer for a helper shift? Jul 10 12:45:24 by irc nick on a schedule? Jul 10 12:45:27 they can always /me i am here to help Jul 10 12:45:28 It is very clear who the regulars are Jul 10 12:45:51 not identify, "recognize" Jul 10 12:45:59 "reward" might be an appropriate word as well Jul 10 12:46:00 join message? Jul 10 12:46:12 spot i am sorry i really dont think we need to identify the helpers Jul 10 12:46:13 * nirik isnt sure how hard that is to change. Jul 10 12:46:15 +v isn't much of a reward either Jul 10 12:46:25 ricky: sure, but it is visible Jul 10 12:46:33 ricky: true but most of the regulars idle in the channel so how is a new user to know if they are there to help or just idling? Jul 10 12:46:35 i think i have to vote against it overall Jul 10 12:46:38 "how did he +v? well, he's currently volunteering to help." Jul 10 12:46:46 "welcome to #fedora. Code of Conduct: http://foo, your current helpers are nirk and spot" Jul 10 12:46:48 Actually, it kind of is, in a twisted, unnecessary way. Jul 10 12:46:55 As in, with +v, people will pay more attention to me vs. other people :-) Jul 10 12:47:08 nirik: the bot would be needed there, but we could do it. Jul 10 12:47:35 ricky: or bother you more Jul 10 12:47:39 that won't help people who stay there thru shift changes tho...but perhaps people could announce when they come on/leave Jul 10 12:47:45 /msg etc Jul 10 12:47:57 Then again, I see one possible advantage to +v, which is that it gives people a feeling of some sort of responsibility to give #fedora a good image Jul 10 12:48:13 <-- engwnbie|scooter has quit ("Leaving") Jul 10 12:48:18 I still don't think it's necessary, though - formalizing the IRC guidelines does this too Jul 10 12:48:20 these people are volunteering to help. I think it is ok for them to get hierarchy as a result. Jul 10 12:48:24 ricky, the people that really are here to help do that anyway Jul 10 12:48:26 ricky: contrasted with the bad feelings lots will get for not getting +v Jul 10 12:48:40 i doubt many people will get bad feelings over not having -v Jul 10 12:48:40 i think its too complicated Jul 10 12:48:44 Yeah. Jul 10 12:49:02 People that spend a ton of time helping can be missed, and that's not good either Jul 10 12:49:03 i think it would be trivial to automate with a bot Jul 10 12:49:08 spot: i can think of quite a few people that think they help, that really dont Jul 10 12:49:24 karma + time Jul 10 12:49:35 then it becomes a 'game' Jul 10 12:49:36 roguedaemon: brings up a good question, what qualifies someone to take a helper shift? Jul 10 12:49:37 ++karma :-) Jul 10 12:49:44 so they would have to be appointed after a request and some evaluation period or something Jul 10 12:49:53 then have them +v automatically on join Jul 10 12:50:08 why would anyone go through that pain to do something they can do anyway? Jul 10 12:50:22 zcat: thats not a bad idea either. Jul 10 12:50:27 spot so why should we go through that pain Jul 10 12:50:38 I think we seed the pool of helpers voted on by the ops... then the helpers choose new helpers to join them. Jul 10 12:50:44 Sonar_Guy, "I only need 6 more days and 37 more karma to level up to voice!" :) Jul 10 12:50:46 well, my argument would be that +v recognition of those folks would be one way. Jul 10 12:50:49 karma might be nice (bot could help there too) Jul 10 12:50:49 The idea of requesting/applying for a "reward" is fnuny. Jul 10 12:50:50 **funny Jul 10 12:51:00 I'm afraid of this turning into a popularity contest Jul 10 12:51:19 Karma is a nice, out-of-the-way method to do this. Jul 10 12:51:26 vwbusguy-: if it keeps good help flowing, i'm not worried. Jul 10 12:51:27 And gives pretty solid metrics Jul 10 12:51:33 can we table this again? time is ticking Jul 10 12:51:37 as long as we dont say anything like 100 karma == ops. Jul 10 12:51:37 freenode says not to keep +o in channels because "a "+o" attracts participants who are interested in gaining them and using them actively; it also attracts the attention of participants who react negatively to authority. " Jul 10 12:51:47 spot: Hah, definitely not :-) Jul 10 12:51:52 doesn't that same sort of thing apply (to a lesser extent to +v)? Jul 10 12:52:01 +1 Jul 10 12:52:06 nirik: it might, if +v meant anything. Jul 10 12:52:14 yeah, I think we need more discussion/thoughts on this... shall we move on for now? Jul 10 12:52:19 i can count on one hand the number of times we've had to moderate #fedora in recent memory Jul 10 12:52:50 lets talk about what to do with good regulars that beat on people Jul 10 12:52:57 spot is that the times you have been called in Jul 10 12:52:57 --- nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Helpers and Shifts Jul 10 12:53:22 roguedaemon, opsec already left. over nothing. Jul 10 12:53:26 Southern_Gentlem: i don't mean to imply that i know about all the possible times. :) Jul 10 12:53:28 so, moving on... does anyone know of a free/opensource way we could have people sign up for shifts? Jul 10 12:53:47 nirik, people sign themselves in Jul 10 12:53:51 well, first we need to define the pool of people Jul 10 12:53:53 vwbusguy-: to what? Jul 10 12:53:59 we can use a wiki page to sign up for shifts. Jul 10 12:54:00 indeed... Jul 10 12:54:01 Side note: Make the wording of the guidelines emphasize the "You are representing Fedora" part Jul 10 12:54:06 (not ideal, but it will work) Jul 10 12:54:09 zcat: foolish pride is a powerful thing Jul 10 12:54:17 Wiki pages are pretty perfect IMO Jul 10 12:54:21 the wiki is pretty poor for this, but I guess it could be a start Jul 10 12:54:42 How? It'll be a tiny bit more complex than the vacation page Jul 10 12:55:07 well, it basically needs to be a calendar, right? Jul 10 12:55:08 mailing list? Jul 10 12:55:15 or even this channel page Jul 10 12:55:16 Mailing lists are hard to look up Jul 10 12:55:25 * nirik thinks google calendar would work fine, but it's not open source. Jul 10 12:55:29 An ical thingy works. Jul 10 12:55:35 (I've only used sunbird) Jul 10 12:55:40 --> xaeth (n=user@32.158.174.255) has joined #Fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:55:46 ical might be possible Jul 10 12:55:52 Who does that huge Fedora ical file? Jul 10 12:55:59 nirik a page simulair to the fedora-meetings page Jul 10 12:56:19 ical gives me headaches, but i could do it Jul 10 12:56:25 you will have people signing up sometimes for on-off shifts, sometimes every day the same times, sometimes the same for a few weeks, then changing, sometimes having vacation or other plans, etc Jul 10 12:56:54 so, I think it gets complex for wiki pages... Jul 10 12:57:02 but of course the wikii requires one to be signed up on fas Jul 10 12:57:12 If that's the case, it gets complex for almost everything :-/ Jul 10 12:57:14 correct Jul 10 12:57:30 ideally, you'd want something that let you login, see the open times Jul 10 12:57:34 pick one that worked for you Jul 10 12:57:42 click it, confirm Jul 10 12:57:55 * nirik nods Jul 10 12:57:55 --> ldimaggi_ (n=ldimaggi@c-76-19-171-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 12:58:16 I'm surprised there isn't a open source scheduling app like that... Jul 10 12:58:16 But people that still have unstable schedules will have pain Jul 10 12:58:16 someone else could load the same page and see who had taken shifts Jul 10 12:58:41 sure, you can only make it easier for them... Jul 10 12:58:50 Actually, hmm. Jul 10 12:58:58 well, I know it's possible to set something like that up with Outlook or Lotus Notes, what about Evolution? Jul 10 12:59:09 * Sonar_Guy steps out to take a phone call Jul 10 12:59:18 ricky you should be able to whip up a php page to do this in 5 minutes Jul 10 12:59:31 vwbusguy-: requires the windows server part I think for scheduling... Jul 10 12:59:37 Heh, /me doesn't know PHP :-) Jul 10 12:59:52 http://www.volsched.com/ Jul 10 12:59:57 anyhow, how do we populate helpers? Jul 10 12:59:59 * Southern_Gentlem gotta move Jul 10 13:00:05 I guess that ties into if we should form a SIG or not. Jul 10 13:00:08 followed from http://www.xvx.ca/shiftscheduler/ Jul 10 13:00:21 nirik: which is waiting on RH Legal, atm Jul 10 13:00:21 add a note to /topic Jul 10 13:00:28 right Jul 10 13:01:41 --> spoleeba (n=one@fedora/Jef) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:01:41 ok, we are pushing the end of our shortened time... other topics people would like to bring up? Jul 10 13:02:06 one that was asked and not really addresses was what to do when regular good helpers are out of line Jul 10 13:02:08 spot: might work. Those don't seem to do times tho, just events Jul 10 13:02:08 grrr stupid vpn..sorry Jul 10 13:02:17 *addressed Jul 10 13:02:18 There was a mini-discussion a bit back about abusive regulars Jul 10 13:02:27 vwbusguy-: that should be covered under the code of conduct for helpers... Jul 10 13:02:33 <-- hanthana_ has quit ("Leaving") Jul 10 13:02:57 I'm not so interested in "What do we do with them" as much as "How can we get them to be nice" Jul 10 13:02:58 abusive regulars should be encouraged to go somewhere else, or stop being abusive. Jul 10 13:03:01 ive been put in uncomfortable situations more than once over the past couple weeks Jul 10 13:03:09 my question at this point is who are the good helpers who are not already ops Jul 10 13:03:52 <-- drago01 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 13:04:18 roguedaemon: Feel free to ping other ops in #fedora-ops and have them chime in? Jul 10 13:04:31 Southern_Gentlem: there are some, but possibly not regulars. Jul 10 13:04:49 I think we need to pull in other fedora folks who don't usually help to do shifts... Jul 10 13:04:50 zcat, vwbusguy- EvilBob (when he is not hurting) f_newton are the ones that pop into my mind Jul 10 13:05:26 * Sonar_Guy is back Jul 10 13:05:27 I'm willing for whenever I'm available. Jul 10 13:05:54 * nirik looks at the top # of line users in http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/fedora.html Jul 10 13:05:58 I try to help whenever in the channel Jul 10 13:06:08 * nirik helps when he has time to Jul 10 13:06:08 nirik: that is a good place to start Jul 10 13:06:11 nirik: for me its more about avoiding hard feelings, we need to make it clear that some of those habits are being washed out Jul 10 13:06:33 --> thomasj (n=thomasj@fedora/thomasj) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:06:47 roguedaemon: indeed, just let them know it's not personal... we are just trying to help our users more and provide a nicer channel for them. Jul 10 13:06:53 --> inode0 (n=inode0@fedora/inode0) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:06:59 Sonar_Guy, all the ops that stay in #fedora help Jul 10 13:07:38 nirik: most of the top 20 help on a regular basis Jul 10 13:07:44 right. Jul 10 13:07:45 --> mcleanj (n=mcleanj@nat/redhat/x-a37d9cfac5f9891d) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:07:57 well the top 25. Jul 10 13:08:24 ok, so we investigate scheduling apps, all work on code of conduct for next time, wait to hear back on SIG/Legal. Jul 10 13:08:29 <-- xaeth (n=user@32.158.174.255) has left #Fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:08:32 one final issue: meeting time Jul 10 13:08:34 and out of those how many are not ops Jul 10 13:08:44 Do you think that abusive regulars are ignored sometimes? Jul 10 13:08:45 --- nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Meeting time Jul 10 13:08:57 As in, the regulars aren't calling them on their mean-ness? Jul 10 13:09:00 same time next week Jul 10 13:09:11 does this time work for everyone? we get bumped by fesco...and one person on the mailing list asked for a eariler time. Jul 10 13:09:14 ricky: and its contagious Jul 10 13:09:20 ricky: i think that's really mean of you to say. ;) Jul 10 13:09:27 (seriously, though, you're right) Jul 10 13:09:30 ricky: I think it's much better in the last few weeks... it has been very bad at times in the past. Jul 10 13:09:35 Yeah, it is contagious :-/ Jul 10 13:09:42 --> drago01 (n=linux@chello062178124130.3.13.univie.teleweb.at) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:09:48 Yeah, I remember those times Jul 10 13:09:49 nirik: how about a time slot before the fesco meeting? Jul 10 13:09:59 it can escalate at a drop of a pin Jul 10 13:10:14 Sonar_Guy: can we finish ok in an hour block, so as not to block fesco? :) Jul 10 13:10:15 thats the main problem i noticed when i came back in the fall, but it does seem to be getting better Jul 10 13:10:19 and the first month after a release Jul 10 13:10:22 I think the regulars have a lot of peer pressure behind them :-) Jul 10 13:10:25 So use it :-) Jul 10 13:10:34 (Mention in the guidelines?) Jul 10 13:10:35 perfect example is user 24 Jul 10 13:10:37 damaestro and edgan aren't on that list Jul 10 13:11:19 ah, there he is. but damaestro's busy. Jul 10 13:11:20 nirik: I was thinking 1500, to ensure that we dont interfere with fesco Jul 10 13:11:25 Sonar_Guy, is there a link to that list? Sorry i`m late. Jul 10 13:11:36 thomasj: which list? Jul 10 13:11:45 http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/fedora.html Jul 10 13:11:45 user 24 and who is not on it Jul 10 13:11:47 http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/fedora.html Jul 10 13:11:51 thx Jul 10 13:11:55 Sonar_Guy: thats a bit early for me, but we could try it. Jul 10 13:12:03 and about the 'abusive regulars'. there's only two i can think of. one's gone, and one's quieter lately Jul 10 13:12:05 Khaytsus for example regularly gives good advice, but he shows up often as most aggressive Jul 10 13:12:08 Ok, if its early Jul 10 13:12:10 anyone else want to chime in on meeting times? Jul 10 13:12:27 zcat ones gone and the other have quieted down Jul 10 13:12:37 Sometimes it's not just abusive.. also sarcastic and demeaning Jul 10 13:12:47 * nirik nods at ricky Jul 10 13:12:49 1530 Jul 10 13:12:56 ricky: which is why currently cruiseovride is banned. Jul 10 13:13:01 even when users are being difficult, we should always try and be nice and pleasent... Jul 10 13:13:22 Southern_Gentlem: 15:30 would work for me. Jul 10 13:13:33 pointing someone to the ask a smarter question faq isn't abuse Jul 10 13:13:43 no, thats fine... Jul 10 13:13:47 zcat no not abusive at all Jul 10 13:13:48 Southern_Gentlem: +1 Jul 10 13:13:53 <-- ldimagg__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 13:13:57 is that UTC? Jul 10 13:14:01 roguedaemon: yes Jul 10 13:14:02 yes Jul 10 13:14:09 zcat, in fact sometimes essential Jul 10 13:15:07 spot: 15:30 UTC work ok for you next week? Jul 10 13:15:14 How much discussion has there been about a factoid bot? Jul 10 13:15:15 sure. Jul 10 13:15:17 (Sorry to keep pushing this meeting) Jul 10 13:15:21 point to smart question or even rute is not abusive but pointing to a jpg that say "google use it MF" is Jul 10 13:15:33 * daMaestro looks in Jul 10 13:15:37 zcat: what about this vice the smart questions page https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/Help_from_IRC#Asking_Questions_Properly Jul 10 13:15:41 lol Jul 10 13:15:41 yes its all about context Jul 10 13:15:56 * Southern_Gentlem points all to http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html or http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Jul 10 13:16:05 --- sdziallas_away is now known as sdziallas Jul 10 13:16:12 ricky: I think we need to define everything we want a bot to do/not do, and then start working on those requirements. Jul 10 13:16:14 that one alot of people consider abusive Jul 10 13:16:14 Southern_Gentlem, rtfm, I forgot, is that over the line? Jul 10 13:16:19 Yeah. Jul 10 13:16:36 One of them is to make regulars not have to repeatedly give stock answers Jul 10 13:16:37 but man blah isnt Jul 10 13:16:46 Sonar_Guy: that is fine, but should be seperate from the code of conduct. Jul 10 13:16:50 Maybe we can even get some of Southern_Gentlem's xchat macros in there :-) Jul 10 13:16:55 nirik: agreed. Jul 10 13:17:14 ricky: sure, but we need to make sure it just msg's the person, and isn't open to being abused by people in the channel to spew things. Jul 10 13:17:19 * Southern_Gentlem points ricky to http://fedorasolved.org/Members/Southern_Gentleman/xchat-shortcuts/ Jul 10 13:17:30 we can setup the pages similar to the hierarchy that spot identified earlier Jul 10 13:17:48 Sonar_Guy: yeah, can you work on that, since you have the wiki-fu down? Jul 10 13:17:50 --> ldimagg__ (n=ldimaggi@nat/redhat/x-511b2c88fb42e0fe) has joined #fedora-meeting Jul 10 13:18:00 nirik: no problem. Jul 10 13:18:11 anything else before we wrap up? Jul 10 13:18:14 so much easier than working in plone hehe Jul 10 13:18:22 --- nirik has changed the topic to: IRC support meeting - Free discussion Jul 10 13:18:38 how do we apply for op? Jul 10 13:18:51 you send check or money order to Jul 10 13:18:54 Tom Callaway Jul 10 13:18:55 i was still wondering about a hostmask Jul 10 13:18:56 Heheh Jul 10 13:19:14 roguedaemon: There's a queue on the wiki (I think spot clears it every month or so) Jul 10 13:19:19 if/when a bot shows up i'll disable my trigger xchat script. i know the '#1 command not found' FAQ can get annoying. Jul 10 13:19:19 k Jul 10 13:19:21 for cloaks? yeah. Jul 10 13:19:24 (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreenodeCloaks) Jul 10 13:19:41 zcat: It's %#&$% handy, though :-) Jul 10 13:19:43 zcat: yeah, but it's sure handy too. Jul 10 13:19:51 well, i have informally asked a few times; we should really have a formal way to ask Jul 10 13:20:07 and i've only needed to use it a few times Jul 10 13:20:13 daMaestro, well if things go well that will be formalized Jul 10 13:20:29 Any suggestions for how a process should look? :-) Jul 10 13:20:29 <-- mclasen has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jul 10 13:20:30 ok. Jul 10 13:20:41 I think if we get this organized could we not add it to the fas? Jul 10 13:20:56 That could work Jul 10 13:21:04 FAS group + bot that queries and syncs Jul 10 13:21:06 just like people that sign up for docs and other such groups sign up for ops Jul 10 13:21:14 also, if there is going to be anyone working on an "official" bot; i'll contribute my coding skills to a supybot Jul 10 13:21:20 Actually, a python library to interface with Freenode's services would be useful in general Jul 10 13:21:30 like !FAQ Jul 10 13:21:34 supybot is in Fedora now :-) Jul 10 13:21:46 well.. no in channel triggers Jul 10 13:21:47 ianweller_afk: might also be interested (he's working on zodbot) Jul 10 13:21:54 if we do that, the process is then either: admin decides, or current ops vote Jul 10 13:22:05 <-- ldimaggi_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 13:22:15 daMaestro: would it be hard to get it to only respond in /msg format? Jul 10 13:22:22 Sonar_Guy, no Jul 10 13:22:27 ok Jul 10 13:22:30 But do people sign up, do admins choose candidates, or wht? Jul 10 13:22:32 FWIW I've seen script answers in #Ubuntu that have at times been helpful (and otherwise abused) Jul 10 13:22:34 nirik, i have no problem with adding daMaestro as a op Jul 10 13:22:48 however, we would need to have a channel.. something like #fedora-botmasters Jul 10 13:23:11 ricky: make it a group decision based on volunteers that sign up, just like fedora-admin group Jul 10 13:23:16 There's a #fedora-supybot now that ianweller_afk and I have been using to test zodbot code Jul 10 13:23:27 we will need a non-#fedora channel to master the bot Jul 10 13:23:31 Sonar_Guy: Cool, then we need a "signup" process Jul 10 13:23:36 lots of times a bot can be abused.. or really just get annoying Jul 10 13:23:42 bot abuse can be throttled though. per user per time period and per trigger globally Jul 10 13:23:43 daMaestro: #fedora-ops? Jul 10 13:23:54 right can it be added to the FAS process Jul 10 13:23:56 i was thinking that the bot asks #fedora-botmasters to respond to triggers in #fedora Jul 10 13:24:21 aka.. it "senses" the phrase "nvidia" and asks in #fedora-botmasters "should i answer user123's question about nvidia?" Jul 10 13:24:23 We can always identify and block (from the bot) bot abusers. Jul 10 13:24:38 all it takes is for something with +v in #fedora-botmasters to say yes Jul 10 13:24:48 and then the response is posted to #fedora Jul 10 13:24:55 I think that might be too muhc Jul 10 13:24:56 **much Jul 10 13:25:04 The bot becomes non-useful if no botmasters are around Jul 10 13:25:21 yeah, i don't think thats a good idea Jul 10 13:25:25 I think it would simpler for it to only respond to /msg or if a helper/ops msg'ed it to send something to someone. Jul 10 13:25:31 if there are no botmasters around... the bot can be abused and the quality of service is greatly reduced Jul 10 13:25:37 Ideally, the bot could be configured to not take commands from abusers Jul 10 13:26:10 there is a good value in allowing the bot to auto-detect FAQ items in #fedora, and respond in #fedora; but only moderated Jul 10 13:26:12 daMaestro: If there are no ops around, somebody can spam the channel to uselessness - doesn't mean that messages should be moderated Jul 10 13:26:25 it might be nice for the bot to log everything it does somewhere, and then ops/helpers could see it being abused and block the user. Jul 10 13:26:29 <-- themayor has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jul 10 13:26:35 if we use /msg .. we still need a channel where the bot will report what /msg conversations it's having Jul 10 13:26:45 we will end up with users conversing with the bot in /msg Jul 10 13:26:52 true. Jul 10 13:27:20 or just never have it answer people who aren't on it's list... then helpers can have it msg people only. Jul 10 13:27:26 yes. people message me a little too often, thinking i'm a bot. :) Jul 10 13:27:42 i'm all for a bot; i've wanted one since day-0 but was put off by a few people here and there and never dedicated time on the matter Jul 10 13:27:44 * nirik thinks there are lots of issues around a bot, so we need to come up with a good setup before implementing it. Jul 10 13:27:54 zcat: Hehe Jul 10 13:27:54 specifically that it would be banned from #fedora :-/ Jul 10 13:28:03 nirik +1 Jul 10 13:28:09 i think a bot should still be able to spew directly to the channel in many cases. helps more people. and clues in that someone was helped. Jul 10 13:28:10 and thus, i never worked on mine Jul 10 13:28:18 the trigger doesn't have to be public though, just the bot response. Jul 10 13:28:18